Commentary on “Transcendent Knowledge Podcast” Episode 25 (2020-07-05) Strange Loop

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Episode 25, July 5, 2020 – Guest: Troy (Strange Loop)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCqCGpOwDYA

Strange Loop and Max Freakout discuss the Egodeath theory.

Site Map: Podcast section
https://egodeaththeory.wordpress.com/nav/#Podcast

Transcendent Knowledge Podcast episodes
https://egodeaththeory.wordpress.com/2020/11/07/transcendent-knowledge-podcast-episodes/

Episode Outline

  • Troy’s history with the ego death theory
  • The difficulty of explaining the theory to other people
  • Common mischaracterisations of the theory
  • Ideas for packaging the theory to promote easier understanding
  • Summarising the ego theory
  • Using optimal vocabulary to express the theory
  • Jimmy’s misunderstanding of the theory
  • Interpreting Jesus as a mushroom
  • Looking for mushrooms in Christian art
  • The relevance of transhumanism and technological singularity
  • Douglas Hofstadter’s writing on self-reference and logical incompleteness
  • The importance of focus and relevance

Start of Podcast

0:00

Was the main article published when the guest found the Egodeath theory website?

Did he read the ED Yahoo group? No.

5:00 Psychonaut.com Thread “what’s happened to Michael Hoffman from egodeath?”

Psychonaut.com (now Psychonaut.fr) thread
“what’s happened to Michael Hoffman from egodeath?”
https://www.psychonaut.fr/Thread-what-s-happened-to-Michael-Hoffman-from-egodeath

12:00 Formatting printed Egodeath.com

  • Egodeath.com (2007)
    • Including the Egodeath Yahoo Group postings June 10, 2001 – February 14, 2004.
    • Main emphasis: the Cybernetic theory;
      the Phase 1 Core theory.
  • EgodeathTheory WordPress site (2020)
    • Including sampling of the Egodeath Yahoo Group postings 2004-2019
    • Main emphasis: the Mytheme theory;
      the Phase 2 periphery/history/myth/analogy theory.

18:00 Egodeath.com Printouts

18:00 “Technique of Ego Death” article at website

This is an excellent pick, and shows Strange Loop’s good judgment.

The egodeath.com page
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCqCGpOwDYA&t=1080s
page title:
Technique of Ego Death
subsection title:
How to safely demonstrate puppethood?
http://www.egodeath.com/TechniqueofEgoDeath.htm#_Toc64387451

19:49 The “Right” Kind of “Suicide”

Proof that the Canterbury Psalter’s Leg-Hanging Mushroom Tree Is Psilocybe
Subsection: Cybercide
https://egodeaththeory.wordpress.com/proof-canterbury-psalters-mushroom-trees-are-psilocybe/#Cybercide

24:00 Ahistoricity of Jesus

27:00 Simplified Explanation of the Egodeath theory

See the Egodeath Yahoo Group Digest 183 I added 2019 simple summary statements posts.

Egodeath Yahoo Group – Digest 183: 2019-05-20
Thread: Summary statements of Egodeath theory
https://egodeaththeory.wordpress.com/2020/12/13/egodeath-yahoo-group-digest-183/#Summary-statements-of-Egodeath-theory

28:10 woman Rowan – thread like “Freewill, Ego death, and psychedelic drugs”

rowan = i am your idea
iamyouridea

Max’s first effort to communicate

not found yet
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Free%20will%20Ego%20death%20psychedelic%20%22max%20freakout%22

format test:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=mushroom+%22christian+art%22

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=mushroom+%22christian+art%22 – happens to give one pic need to check out:

https://www.imb.org/image/ancient-frescoes-7/
https://www.imb.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/2008136mnj0814-2200×1467.jpg

32:21 Question which Strange Loop asked people

Are you familiar with the Egodeath website, Michael Hoffman’s Cybernetic Theory of Ego Transcendence?

41:00 Egodeath Yahoo Group Digests

Max copied the database of Egodeath Yahoo Group posts. Formats he presently has:
o Hundreds of PDF files, hard to search within.
o Single long plaintext file, hard to read.

42:10 the the Egodeath Yahoo Group Digests are not very searchable. I am able to search (including quotes) within the HTML digest files locally.

48:00 Theory Presentation Spoon-Feed

Theory presentation spoonfeed

A certain magazine lately has more pictures, less technical jargon, 123 basics, shallower than that magazine was in the 1970s.

Reading level reduced from 12th to 8th grade.Need diagrams.

Needs an intro welcoming page such as the main article that is at the website since 2006.

Need cartoon Christian figures, need that these days to engage anybody.

[My idea of packaging as pamphlet tract handout for festivals.]

“The Bible Project”
Website is a wall of text.

Need pictures, such as the main article that is at the website since 2006.

48:00 The Bible Project, Accessible Format

The Bible Project as an example of making info accessible.

“BibleProject” YouTube channel,

BibleProject website https://bibleproject.com – short-form animated videos & other free resources to help people everywhere experience the unified story of the Bible.

49:00 From Wall of Text, to Accessible Summary Presentation

Delete All Content from Egodeath.com Except Main Article, to Have Pictures, No Wall of Text?

My main article already accomplished what Guest is asking for.

How does the main article not accomplish already, everything the guest is proposing?

Is the Guest implying I need to delete everything from Egodeath.com except the main article?”

Guest suggests instead of a wall of text, the website should be an accessible summary presentation, such as the main article that is at the website since 2006.

54:30 Summarize the Egodeath Theory in a Sentence

55:00 My review of the main parts of the theory, related to a single-sentence summary

My review of the main parts of the theory, related to a single-sentence summary:

Dividing theory into 3 vs 4 parts after 2013: use condensed statement:

3-Term Summary

As 3 parts: Myth describes psychedelics revealing Eternalism.

Those 3 parts are:

  • mythology
  • psychedelics
  • eternalism

As 4 parts: Myth describes psychedelics revealing timeless noncontrol.

Religious mythology describes psychedelics revealing timeless block-universe noncontrol.

‘Eternalism’ is too esoteric a word, and, it’s two concommitant parts:

o Frozen-time block universe with embedded worldlines

o Cybernetic non-control

Extract list of 4 main topics from the condensed statement:

Myth describes psychedelics revealing timeless noncontrol.

o Religious mythology (& related terms)

o Loose cognitive association binding state (includes meta-perception)

o Block universe frozen time with embedded worldline of personal control

o Self-control cybernetics, experiencing of noncontrol in the loosecog state

The latter two parts are revealed together in the same experiential state, and can be combined into the esoteric unfamiliar opaque term ‘Eternalism’.

/ my review or summary

55:15 Religion is a metaphorical description of discovering Eternalism in the psychedelic state of consciousness.

Religion is a metaphorical description of discovering Eternalism in the psychedelic state of consciousness.

One problem w/ that: no one knows what the tech term ‘eternalism’ means. So the sentence as-is won’t communicate.

Missing:

Self-control cybernetics.  

56:20 eternalism/possibilism – literalist antidrugs possibilism vs. psychedelic metaphorical eternalism

Max: “eternalism seems to point to determinism but doesn’t point to Cybernetics; Does eternalism successfully contain the concept of Cybernetics sufficiently?” Loop: “Only for internal audience.” Max” add “via egodeath control loss.”

eternalism/possibilism – literalist antidrugs possibilism vs. psychedelic metaphorical eternalism

Frozen time block universe with worldlines. 

Can combine those two as Eternalism, which means nothing to anyone and is unhelpful.

58:10 Religion is a metaphorical description of discovering Eternalism in the psychedelic state of consciousness via ego death control-loss.

Religion is a metaphorical description of discovering Eternalism in the psychedelic state of consciousness via ego death control-loss.

58:35 Religion is a metaphorical description of tripping out and discovering Eternalism via the experience of panic-attack control-loss ego death.

Religion is a metaphorical description of tripping out and discovering Eternalism via the experience of panic-attack control-loss ego death.

The Theory is easy to summarize.

The main article’s diagram with 4 quadrants puzzle pieces shows how amazingly summarizable the Egodeath theory is.

1:00:00 Ambiguity of the Word ‘Determinism’

1:00:00 The 3 pillars (guest proposed): Determinism/ Eternalism, Self-Control Cybernetics, Psychedelics

The 3 pillars (guest proposed):

o Determinism/Eternalism

o Self-control cybernetics

o Psychedelics

Is that the most optimal summary?

/ condensed at this scale

The guest’s breakout of 3 pillars omits the theory of interpreting *religious mythology* as analogy/metaphor that describes the altered experiential state.

Guest discusses Ahistoricity in place of that.

1:01:00 Making Good Theory vs. Optimizing Lexicon

Project 1: a theory which explains psych tripping ego death and religion

Project 2: optimizing the lexicon, creating the absolute most efficient short summarizable way of explaining what the theory is.

1:02:00 The Diamond Hammer of Interpretation, the Lightning Path Shortcut to Understanding

The Diamond Hammer of Interpretation – to do: post about that in detail.

the Lightning Path Shortcut to Understanding

  • Literalist anti-drugs Possibilism
  • Metaphorical psychedelic Eternalism

1:03:00 Holistic everything-at-once atemporal acausal determinism

Holistic everything-at-once atemporal acausal determinism.

Not the misleading ego-level version: causal temporal determinism, chain of dominos, falling in sequence over time.

My notes/summary of theory:

Covered in this episode?

  • heimarmane,
  • eternalism,
  • self-control cybernetics,
  • noncontrol,
  • frozen time block universe.

Religious mythology is description by analogy of psychedelics producing an experience of frozen-time noncontrol.

myth is metaphor describing psychedelics producing frozen-time noncontrol

A goal was to get rid of the esoteric term ‘heimarmene’. 140-character or 200-character units (short posts), common words, 8th grade, anyone in chat. See link to summary.

  • cybernetics
  • heimarmene
  • eternalism
  • block universe
  • worldline
  • experiential
  • revising mental model of time and control

/ My notes /summary of theory

1:04:30 Is ‘Determinism’ the Reason for Misunderstanding the Egodeath Theory?

See also my analysis at Idea Development page 9, section:
Identifying the Root Cause of “I couldn’t see it”; if ‘it’ Were Taken as Referring to the Egodeath Theory Asserting “Everything is already there at all times” and Rejecting “Unfolding in time”
https://egodeaththeory.wordpress.com/2021/01/07/idea-development-page-9/#root-cause

Is the word ‘Determinism’ the Reason for Misunderstanding the Egodeath Theory? Clarification of the word ‘eternalism’ could break down the walls to understanding. But Strange Loop says that’s not the problem.

Explanation: He’s Alternating Between Good and Bad Methodology (Faulty Premises of High Dose)

I have an alternative explanation:

Kafei is alternating between the good, standard, normal methodology, and his own, home-made, bad, abnormal methodology based around faulty assumptions around his notion of “high dose”.

That’s the source of the strange, noticeable phenomenon of Kafei going around in circles, waffling, being unable to adhere to Max’s discussion-structure based on careful contrast of the two opposed positions, and contradicting himself.

Kafei converses as if he hasn’t read the Egodeath theory. Whatever he was reading, the 20% of the Egodeath site, he was not reading the core concepts of the egodeath theory, as in the main article. He always reaches for quotes of mystics, and rarely connects ideas with the core concepts of the Egodeath theory, regarding timelessness and no-free-will.

Kafei speaks like he’s rebutting Ramesh and Harris‘ possibly half-baked positions, not the Egodeath theory’s position.

The Egodeath theory is not Ramesh. The Egodeath theory is not Sam Harris. Do not conflate any half-baked ideas Ramesh or Harris might have, with the egodeath theory. Read the Egodeath theory; don’t guess what its position is, based on “it’s the same as Ramesh”.

The fact that Kafei (after reading Ramesh) was disrupted by Bizzy Bone’s “rebuttal”, of bobbing his head, demonstrates that neither Bizzy Bone nor Kafei understand what no-free-will asserts.

How could bobbing one’s head possibly rebut the no-free-will position? To think that acting randomly could disprove the no-free-will position, just demonstrates that the person fails to grasp what the no-free-will position asserts.

Kafei is a poor judge of philosophical positions on determinism, given that he’s confused like Bizzy, over what actions could rebut or “threaten” a no-free-will or determinism position.

Episode 25, 1:04:47, Strange Loop surmises that the problem with Kafei’s inconsistent description of block-universe determinism in the Egodeath theory, is not a matter of accurately defining ‘determinism’. I’m starting to agree; my analysis of Kafei’s inconsistency agrees with Strange Loop.

1:03:00 Transcription: “a psychological thing rather than simply choosing the wrong word”

1:03:00 Max: “Acausal determinism.

“The major mistake that Jimmy made in episode 16 was that he was too eager to use the word determinism and then mistake it for the bad, misleading, ego-level version of determinism, which is causal temporal determinism, where it’s like a chain of dominos, where one domino falling, causes the next domino to fall in the line.

“That is emphatically not what MH means when he uses the word ‘determinism’.

“So he [MH] abandoned the word ‘determinism’, because it has that problem built into it.

“And he replaced it with the word ‘eternalism’, which eliminates that problem and expands the explanatory scope of what he’s trying to talk about.

“… the progression of optimality in the vocabulary you’re using.”

Strange Loop: “… I don’t think that would have made or break Jimmy’s understanding of the theory however. … Jimmy has blinders on and he’s getting confused in terminology that if that was clarified I still think he would find something else, there’s just some kind of blinders on that, I don’t think the clarification of ‘eternalism’ would break down the walls for him.”

Max: “Interesting, I see, there’s more to it with him than just a simple mistake of using the wrong word. There’s this blindness, like a psychological thing that he has, rather than simply choosing the wrong word.”

Explanation (part 2): He’s Alternating Between Good and Bad Methodology (Faulty Premises of High Dose)

My analysis and explanation is that:

Kafei is trying to employ, alternatively, a good, standard methodology, which accurately states the Egodeath theory’s position, alternating with a bad, non-standard methodology, which states the Egodeath theory’s position as the opposite of the theory’s stated position.

The good methodology which returns the correct result, is normal reading of the Egodeath theory’s plain position-statements.

The bad methodology, which returns the opposite, incorrect result, is:
1) attempting to detect the binary presence or absence of high dose, and
2a) assuming that the detected presence of high dose necessarily means that the Theory asserts timelessness (that’s a conflation), and
2b) that the failure to detect high dose NECESSARILY MEANS THAT THE THEORY CANNOT BE ASSERTING TIMELESSNESS (that’s the other side of the same conflation). Even though the normal good methodology which Kafei alternatively uses, correctly represents the theory’s timelessness position.

That is my explanation: He’s alternating between two methodologies: one good, one bad, and trying, unsuccessfully, to combine the results.

The bad methodology has a conflation built-in:

  • Presence of detected high dose in a theory is the same thing as the theory asserting timelessness.
  • Absence of detected high dose in a theory is the same thing as the theory asserting unfolding-in-time.

Kafei then alternates between holding that bad methodology and its wrong conclusion; and the normal, good methodology and its correct conclusion.

The Great Mystics Are Admitted into the Exclusive Club of Timeless Metaphysics, Without Their Having to Advocate High Dose

Note that he somehow exempts the Great Mystics’ writings from his requirement to advocate high dose. Inconsistent much? 🙃

1:05:30 Misplaced Focus on ‘Psychedelics’; “Jesus Is a Mushroom” < the Resulting Phenomenology – but Still, Must Explicitly Lock-in Psychedelics, to Shut Out the Meditation Hucksters

Misplaced focus on ‘Psychedelics’; “Jesus Is a Mushroom” is inferior to highlighting the resulting phenomenology – but still, must explicitly lock-in ‘psychedelics’, to shut out the Meditation hucksters.

“psychedelics” – ahistoricity of Jesus has a wide literature (John Allegro, John Rush, Carl Ruck, Mark Hoffman [also Earl Doherty]: Jesus is ahistorical.

Jesus is a mushroom.

Still superficial is:

Jesus is a personification of psychedelics, eg mushroom.

eg the book The Pharmacratic Inquisition.

Max points out that that’s a misplaced focus.

It’s not getting at the phenomenological heart of the ED theory (or shift of experiential mental worldmodel), by focusing on the visionary plants themselves.

Max initially argues:

What’s relevant is the state of consciousness.

Psychedelics – more optimal, the state of consciousness or the phenomenology.

But guest points out that the word ‘psychedelics’ must be specified, if not emphasized.

Specifying ‘Psychedelics’ is required, to prevent the Meditation argument/lie/fraud, which is avoidance of effective transcendence.

What Is the Final, Bulletproof Sentence Describing the Egodeath Theory?

Finally, they form the phrase/statement: todo: __ from 1:09:00 — “the state of consciousness that is exclusively elicited by Psychedelics” – unfort, I don’t think Max ever came back to state the vulnerability-corrected 1-sentence definition; I guess he implies it would be:

Religion is a metaphorical description of discovering Eternalism in the psychedelic state of consciousness via ego death control-loss … the state of consciousness that is exclusively elicited by Psychedelics

Max implies: Try to combine those, as follows:

Religion is a metaphorical description of discovering Eternalism in the state of consciousness that is exclusively elicited by Psychedelics, via ego death control-loss.

Religion is a metaphorical description of discovering Eternalism in the state of consciousness that is exclusively elicited by Psychedelics, via ego death control-loss.

Judgment: Not Snappy

My wording phrasing of that statement would be more like: Take the pop bias, embrace it, but then scramble it, redirect it, in the right direction:

Start by Stating What Everyone Wrongly Believes, Then Redirecting the Finish Correctly

Religion is a metaphorical description of Psychedelics …

discovering Eternalism in the state of consciousness that is exclusively elicited by Psychedelics, via ego death control-loss.

My Formulation from the Conversation:
“Religion is a metaphorical description of Psychedelics revealing Eternalism via loss of control and ego death.”

Religion is a metaphorical description of Psychedelics revealing Eternalism via loss of control and ego death.

My objection: ok tech sentence but utterly depends on key term that no one knows: ‘eternalism’. That term stands out as the weak point, the point of failure of communication/meaning.

Even worse would be:

Religion is a metaphorical description of entheogens revealing eternalism via loss of control and ego death.

  • No one knows what the complicated, obfuscating term ‘entheogens’ means.
  • No one knows what the complicated, obfuscating term ‘eternalism’ means.

Proof & Critieria of Inadequacy and Failure of terms ‘Entheogens’ & ‘Eternalism’

Try posting that sentence in a random online chat forum:

Religion is a metaphorical description of entheogens revealing eternalism via loss of control and ego death.

People will reply in chat:

“I follow your chat post, except for the mystifying words ‘entheogens’ and ‘eternalism’. You lost me at ‘entheogens’, and then you lost me again at ‘eternalism’. Speak English.”

Religion is a metaphorical description of entheogens revealing eternalism via loss of control and ego death.

Religion is a metaphorical description of psychedelics revealing the timeless pre-existence of your future control-thoughts, thus loss of control and ego death.

Religion is a metaphorical description of psychedelics revealing the pre-existing future path of your life frozen in spacetime, producing loss of control and ego death.

People in genero-chat don’t know what these terms mean: block universe, worldlines, eternalism, entheogens.

‘Analogy’ Is Clearer than ‘Metaphor’

‘metaphor’ is vague; ‘analogy’ is better. No one’s quite sure what ‘metaphor’ means, but everyone is clear on the word ‘analogy’.

The word ‘metaphor’ is vague and complex-theory sounding, while ‘analogy’ is perfectly clear.

Hofstadter used the word ‘analogies’, not ‘metaphors’, in his book – 2 books – about Analogies.

Fluid Concepts and Creative Analogies: Computer Models Of The Fundamental Mechanisms Of Thought
Douglas Hofstadter, 1995
http://amzn.com/0465024750

Hofstadter uses ‘Analogy’ & ‘Analogies’ in TWO Book Titles

Surfaces and Essences: Analogy as the Fuel and Fire of Thinking
http://amzn.com/0465018475
2013

Fluid Concepts and Creative Analogies: Computer Models Of The Fundamental Mechanisms Of Thought
1995
http://amzn.com/0465024750

1:09:00 Say “the state of consciousness that is exclusively elicited by Psychedelics”

Max: “I see your point; by specifying only “the Psychedelic state of consciousness”, you lose this crucial point, which is that the psychedelic state of consciousness can only be elicited by drugs.

“Instead of calling it ‘psychedelics’, say:

“the state of consciousness that is elicited by psychedelic drugs, and only exclusively by psychedelic drugs”

The focus has to be on:
the state of consciousness; loose cognitive association binding.

The state of consciousness is the pillar, more than the drugs.

Drugs are the sole exclusive gateway to the experience of loosecog, egodeath, and worldmodel reconfiguration.

The state of consciouesness is crucial, more than the drugs themselves.

Hanegraaff’s Outrage-Inducing Theft-Attempt & Monstrosity, “Non-Drug Entheogens”

section by MH:

Shut down the meditation hucksters.

Outrageous Hanegraaff’s demonic monstrostity, malformed lying construction, “Non-drug entheogenic methods”. Stop, Thief!

Whose side are you on, Hanegraaff, the liars’?

Hanegraaff is trying to sell you Dehydrated Water by the gallon – as always in this field, hold onto your wallet!

The psychedelics state of consciousness can only be induced by visionary plants, despite the inflated marketing (when pressed, shifting goalposts and denial of the original aggressive braggadocio by meditation advocates).

The Theory Is an Airplane, Psychedelics is the Fuel

analogy: plane = the theory, fuel = the psychedelics.

the flying is important rather than the plane or fuel.

the experience, its experiential.

1:11:20 Sure Jesus Is a Mushroom, but How do Jesus Stories Describe Tripping?

Jesus is a mushroom not a historical person — beter: Jesus is the psychedelic expeirence. better expl of what Christianity is about. Allegro, John Rush. “Jesus is a mushroomm” but how do the Jesus stories describve tripping?

1:11:25 Cottage Industry of “Spot the Mushroom” Game

Stories: Israelites Manna (I have very good photos I took of smooth & spiked manna balls spread out 1.5’x3′).

There’s lots of writing like that, few writings about {Jesus seized by guards , put on trial, crucfied}, is a metaphorical description of self-battling cognitive dynamics, mind splits into ego freewill part of mind vs. transcendent deterministic part of mind- cognitive dynamics, not covered in the writings about “Jesus is a mushroom”.

1:10:14 The 3 pillars: det/cyb/loosecog (fails to lock-in psychedelics)

The 3 pillars:

o Determinism/Eternalism

o Self-control cybernetics

o Loose cognitive association binding

‘Psychedelics’ is less on-point than ‘Loose cognitive association binding’.

Note: A snake is the shape of gnosis, because experiencing one’s worldline of control as non-branching, frozen into the block universe.

1:13:00 Category Error of Chasing Mushrooms like Where’s Waldo, Pop Sike Spirituality trying to simply Negate/Remove Ego vs. Need to See Clarify What Ego Is

Category Error of Chasing Mushrooms like Where’s Waldo, Pop Sike Spirituality trying to simply Negate/Remove Ego vs. Need to See Clarify What Ego Is

1:13:20 Category Error: Chasing Mushrooms Like Where’s Waldo

Pop Sike spirituality, ego is to be rooted out/eliminated. No, clarify that the ego still exists but see it for what it is.

1:22:00 cyborg tripping

1:22:00 cyborg tripping

Needs to mention the Rush song The Body Electric.
http://www.egodeath.com/rushlyrics.htm#xtocid22998

End of Podcast

Private Email, Subject: Episode 25 notes (copied to above)

Found the Email of my Episode Commentary: a Private Email in Main Mailbox. Copied to Above.

check against Sent mailbox

Look for the Egodeath Yahoo Group posting, unless I totally stopped posting due to Yahoo removing the Web UI and I hadn’t yet learned to use Yahoo Mail to post to the group.

But if I stopped posting, why does my Notes file ED_topost2.md contain section “Some loose commentary on Episode 25”? (copied here) I wouldn’t have written that, without somehow posting it. eg Yahoo Mail doesn’t contain “Episode 25”.

What about main mailbox? Looks like I found the answer:

As a stopgap, I merely emailed my writeup privately, in main mailbox.
Subject: “Episode 25 notes“. Copied to above, in timestamp order.

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Author: egodeaththeory

http://egodeath.com

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