Commentary on Episode 14 (2019-06-18) Max Freakout & Cyberdisciple re: Kafei

Site Map

Contents:

Egodeath Yahoo Group Postings – Contents:

Episode 14, June 18, 2019 – Max Freakout & Cyberdisciple re: Kafei

Episode 14, June 18, 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3duNhxmRIc

Max Freakout and Cyberdisciple discuss and analyse the recent dialogue between Max Freakout and Jimmy (Kafei).

Kafei episodes:

  • ep12 Kafei appearance 1
  • ep13 Kafei appearance 2
  • ep14 (present)
  • ep16 Kafei appearance 3
  • ep26 Kafei appearance 4, w/ Cyberdisciple

Kaf & Max discussed elsewhere:

The OSC-based understanding that Ramesh has, vs. the experiential understanding of same, in the altered state (loose cognitive binding), by the guru.
at 13:50 in Episode 26
13*60 + 50 = 830s
Transcendent Knowledge Podcast, at YouTube, episode 26, at 13:50:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ-xfMkHyuQ&t=830s
OSC-based vs. ASC-based conceptions of “block-universe determinism”, 16:38, … (how focused on this topic though? wanders, kind of returns to the topic, “eternalism and the block universe are two different ways of describing it”
Then at 19:13 in episode 26, Max says…. tries to extract the relevant point & summarize in terms of the Egodeath theory. “a 2-state cosmology, egoic state, psychedelic state; block-universe determinism or eternalism, everything has already unfolded in time, that model of time is the one that’s relevant to the intense mystic altered state experiencing. … causal-chain determinism vs. block-universe determinism.” That episode is covered in the below link:

Commentary on Episode 26 (2020-12-06) Kafei (appearance 4), Max Freakout, Cyberdisciple
https://egodeaththeory.wordpress.com/2020/12/06/tk-podcasts-commentary/

Episode Outline

Jimmy’s understanding of Transcendent Knowledge
Using the Ego Death Theory as a conversionary tool
Terence Mckenna’s evolutionary ideas as pseudoscience
Exoteric and Esoteric interpretations of religion
Atheist thinking style
Theories of paradigm conversion and explanatory frameworks

Egodeath Yahoo Group posting of commentary

I merged those timestamp sections into the later commentary.

Egodeath Yahoo Group Posting – June 22, 2019 10:20am – from Yahoo Mail webapp Sent box.

Episode Link & Outline

Transcendent Knowledge podcast, Episode 14

Max Freakout and Cyberdisciple discuss and analyse the recent dialogue between Max Freakout and Jimmy (Kafei).

Topics:

Jimmy’s understanding of Transcendent Knowledge

Using the Ego Death Theory as a conversionary tool

Terence Mckenna’s evolutionary ideas as pseudoscience

Exoteric and Esoteric interpretations of religion

Atheist thinking style

Theories of paradigm conversion, and explanatory frameworks

My thread that has outlines of each episode:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/egodeath/conversations/messages/10816
That’s the “Transcendent Knowledge podcast” subject thread.
The present post is from the Egodeath Yahoo Group thread “Transcendent Knowledge podcast commentary”.

Start of Podcast

5:00 – Conversion Potential Lessons Learned, Can the Egodeath theory Bring People on Board?

Takeaway Question: How Does Kafei Still Think the Block Universe = Domino-Chain, Unfolding-in-Time Determinism?

In Episode 16 & 26, Kafei is tentative and incorrect, about what position the Egodeath theory has.

Kafei said that “in some way”, “I think” (that is, he tentatively thinks or suspects) that the block universe in the Egodeath theory is
domino-chain determinism [dcc]
causal-chain determinism [ccd]
unfolding-in-time determinism [uitd]

which indicates that Kafei’s reading of “20%” of Egodeath.com, may have probed that site for “the absolute” and “high dose”, but didn’t read the definitions of the block universe, or, Kafei mis-read the definition of the block universe in the Egodeath theory, projecting onto this the block universe concept and misreading this concept as unfolding-in-time “determinism”, he ignored the custom redefintion….

Kafei at one point said that the Egodeath theory redefines the word ‘hiemarmene’, I don’t see what he means; I use the word ‘heimarmene’ as the ancients did.

I would agree that the Egodeath theory redefines the word ‘determinism’, and that is confusing, which is why I stopped relying on or depending on, I stopped employing the term ‘determinism’ because that word makes it too easy to mis-read the block universe concept in the Egodeath theory as domino-chain determinism (unfolding-in-time determinism; causal-chain determinism).

Max, a takeaway for conversion communication, is, evidently, MORE EFFECTIVE WAYS ARE NEEDED OF SHUTTING OUT THE CAUSAL-CHAIN DETERMINISM VIEW/ MISREADING OF THE ‘BLOCK UNIVERSE’ idea in the Egodeath theory.

Kafei evidently doesn’t “get” the idea of the block universe.

Key Question 1: How is it that at this late date, Kafei still doesn’t understand the block universe idea, eternalism, as the mutually exclusive opposite of unfolding-in-time determinism, causal-chain determinism, domino-chain determinism?

Max pushed back multiple times to correct Kafei.

It would be possible in principle to find several timestamp URLs where Max corrected Kafei, and yet Kafei said like “Max, I think you said the Egodeath theory is the exact same position as Ramesh, who is OSC-based, so I think that the block universe concept in the Egodeath theory must be based on causal-chain determinism in some way.”

Myy paraphrase above is clear and accurate. I added explicitly, above, that Ramesh is in the OSC. Here’s the exact transcript:

YouTube timestamp-URL:
13:47 = 13*60 + 47 = 827
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ-xfMkHyuQ&t=827s

Precursor: Max Defines Two Opposed Types of Determinism

At 11:15 (ep 26), Max said:

At 11:15, Max defines (transcribed at https://egodeaththeory.wordpress.com/2020/12/06/tk-podcasts-commentary/#11-15 ):

  • “causal-chain determinism“
    vs.
  • “block-universe determinism, aka eternalism”

“A good distinction between them was contained in what you just said, I’ll extract it:

“In causal-chain determinism, you have a process of causation occurring in time, you used ‘unfolding’, that’s causal-chain determinism.

“Contrast that with block-universe determinism / eternalism: in that model of determinism, there’s no causation in time occurring, because all of the causation has already happened, everything has already unfolded, so you’ve got the full chain from the beginning to the end of time, or you could look at it as [length of your life] all existing at once, all in one go.

“So there’ no unfolding, there’s only something that has already eternally unfolded.”

K: “Yeah, that definitely pretty much echoes what I said.”

13:47 Kafei Tries to Conjoin “causal determinism = block universe”

The below transcription is copied from https://egodeaththeory.wordpress.com/2020/12/06/tk-podcasts-commentary/#Peak-Confusion —

YouTube timestamp-URL:
13:47 = 13*60 + 47 = 827
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ-xfMkHyuQ&t=827s

13:47

Next, soon after, at 13:47 (in Episode 26), Kafei said to Max:

(precise transcription)
Kafei: “I well the reason that you said, you mentioned, ’cause you said that uh, you mentioned that Ramesh and Michael Hoffman are concluding the same exact point, so I kind of, you know, figured that maybe, you know, Michael was referring to, uh uh, causal determinism in some way, through the block universe, but you know that yes, everything’s determined, we have, you know, in the psychedelic experience itself, you don’t, you know, the mystic no longer identifies with the material body, because they see themselves as all events, occurring, you know, all time past and future collapsed into the moment, and so, you know, they have no identific…”

Max: “So which, which model of determinism would that be then, that, what you’ve just explained?”

Max was expecting one of the following, clear-cut, defined, named answers:

  • “causal-chain determinism”
  • “block-universe determinism, aka eternalism”

It turns out, Max should have given Kafei a multiple-choice question, like:

“Which model of determinism would that be, that you just explained: causal-chain determinism; or block-universe determinism, which is also called ‘eternalism’? Or did you just describe both of those positions?”

Does Kafei even *try* to answer Max’s question? No. Kafei responds by describing (rather than labelling) the position which he himself holds & asserts. Now, he’s shifted from discussing two labeled concepts, using those two labels, to instead, characterizing the ASC experience of the block universe.

Kafei doesn’t, next, state what he thinks the Egodeath theory’s conception of the block universe is; he only states how he himself thinks of the block universe and the experiencing of the block universe.

Kafei doesn’t employ or touch base with Max’s two terms, the two types of determinism being the causal-chain, and block-universe types of determinism.

14:33

(precise transcription)
Kafei: “I consider it, like the way I was sort of thinking about it is like a direct experience of the block universe, or the mind fuses with the block universe, like it becomes all, it becomes the block, and so there is no time to unfold because you know, everything is occurring at once, simultaneously, but that’s the vision inside the experience, but when you come- when you return to the baseline of consciousness, you return to space and time, the egoic illusion, but nevertheless you still have in your memory banks the vision of where, where that ego death happened, where you know, there was no longer an ego, but there was still awareness there, and it’s that awareness that you could recall from your memory banks, …” 15:25

Kafei exclaims all of the above, as if it’s different from the Egodeath theory; as if the Egodeath theory hasn’t already articulated and asserted all that. Which strongly gives evidence that Kafei hasn’t read the Egodeath theory, despite his claim to have read 20% of Egodeath.com.

/ end of copied excerpt

Takeaway Question: How Does Kafei Still Think the Egodeath Theory Is OSC-Based?

Key Question 2: How, at this late date, does Kafei mis-read the Egodeath theory as being OSC-based rather than ASC-based?

To Analyze: How did Max not correct Kafei on this key basic point, given that Max has so corrected Kafei multiple times on this kind of point? Resort to the last resort, of a Psychological explanation (ie that Kafei desires the Egodeath theory to be bad)? Does Kafei simply need one more correction on this point? Is the 2006 main article a failure due to employing the word ‘determinism’, which has baked into it, causal-chain determinism, domino-chain determinism , unfolding-in-time determinism? Was it thus a fatal flaw using the word ‘determinism‘ in the 2006 main article?

8:00

jimmy’s exp’c of athiest forums shaped his conversation style

podcasts served to sort out jimmy’s thinking

Terence Mckenna’s evolutionary ideas as pseudoscience
11:00

mckenna pseudoscience, stoned ape theory

bc that one theory, cannot take any of mckenna ideas seriously.

McKenna’s critique of Scientistic Positivism. So calling him ps-scien’c falls into the fault that McKenna pointed out.

Lamarkist Evolution vs. Darwinian

Jimmy a lone contrarian defending McKenna’s idea accused of Lamarkist. Max thinks stoned ap is Lamarkist (not darwinian), against Jimmy; evolutionary change in the org’m occurs during lifetime of the organism (= Larmarkism, giraffe stretching during its life, passes on that char’c to offspring). Darwin’s theory is accepted, denies that change happens during lifetime.

15:49

Max was not defneing Jimmy on that point. Max was defning Jimmy re: validity of stone ape; dismissing ideas as pseudosci is against McKenna’s meta-arg

Max asserted the maximal entheogen theory of religion in other thread, which Jimmy posted in but not like Max would. two lone contrarians/ differeed between themselves, against everyone else who scorned entirely.

Fallacy “Drugs = Exogenous = Artificial; Non-Drug = Indogenous = Natural”
21:30

I’m against seriously non-ironically employing the word ‘natural’ here sometimes. The word is 100% confusing, ambig.

  • Mushrooms are natural, organic, simple, readily edible by anyone.
  • 30 years of sitting nondrug meditation is extremely unnatural.

Jonathan Ott’s book The Natural Paradises. See https://egodeaththeory.wordpress.com/2020/12/06/tk-podcasts-commentary/#Debatable-Usage-of-the-Word

Fallacy “Drugs = Exogenous = Artificial; Non-Drug = Indogenous = Natural”
21:48

traditional non-drug , “drugs are unnatural, substitute means”, exoteric

Perennialism
25:00

Cons: It doesn’t get what Transcendent Knowledge is really about

drugs are an imitation of exactly what view? a bunk view per Perennialism.

24:00

Perennialism explanations are threatened by mushrooms. where do drugs fit into Perennialism Philosohpy? “suboptimial” “modern form” vs drugs as true origin & wellspring. per typical Pere’ists.

All world religions are pointing to same mysticism. when say drugs cause that state relability, reliably, Perennialists defend anti-drug presuppossitions, won’t ack that drugs are the source of that, per cutting-edge the Egodeath theory / maxi the maximal entheogen theory of religion. what does it mean that drugs were present all thorughout history? Perennialists have been in a bind about the drug experience. the Egodeath theory hasa already completed, what Perennialism has barely struggeld with partway.

The Egodeath Theory is “More Evolved” than Perennialism
27:00

vestigial traits

ThinkAtheist Moved to AtheistZone

that was how the written comm’n bewt max & jimmy, at ThinkAtheist forum.

thinkatheist.com redirects to http://atheistzone.com,
“Most of the Think Atheist member accounts have been imported to atheistzone.com.”

29:41 – How Kafei Later Re-contacted Max

Comedy Skit, Interview with God. Zeus & Semele

30:20

Stephen Fry Atheist, Self-Righteous, Book about Greek Mythology

32:00

fixated on the Creationist aspect of God.

Mythos: The Greek Myths Reimagined
Stephen Fry
Ancient Greek Mythology Book for Adults
Modern Telling of Classical Greek Myths Book
Hardcover – Illustrated
August 27, 2019
http://amzn.com/1452178917

Max posted a comment on the video where about guy trying to interview god and freaking out, max wrote that’s how Stephen Fry would react.

Kafei contacted Max via that comment.

Interview with Max on Aly’s Show Didn’t Happen, to Get Back into Podcasting – Pop Sike, Breaking Convention Organizer
35:13

Max wrote ok I’ll cover:

  • The differences of approach via the Egodeath theory vs. in Pop Sike re:
    • Meditation.
    • Psychedelics.

Max didn’t hear back, for Transcendent Knowledge ep 12.

Cyberdisciple — it woud’ve been discussion of Meditation within context of the Egodeath theory, too stirring the waters of the aud’c.

Org’er said to Max “You ‘re the only person who knows the Egodeath theory” – why the Egodeath theory is anti-popular.

The Egodeath theory brings bad news about psychedelics/world, unwelcome.. (sounds like a page idea:

The Egodeath Theory Is a Large Set of Bad News

  • you can’t trip by meditatin
  • there’s no-free-will
  • a bad trip is the most exalted high extreme exp’c.

The Egodeath Theory as a Large Set of Bad News
https://egodeaththeory.wordpress.com/2020/12/30/the-egodeath-theory-as-a-large-set-of-bad-news/

Pop Sike wants to avoid bad press, that drugs are dangerous instead of “benefiicial and can be controolldby licensed trained guide sittter therapist”

The world of contemporary atheism, Jimmy likes to challenge them and invite them to view things differently, Jimmy the long co lone contrarian in orthodoxy comm’y. Like Max is lone.

  • addr’g the world of athism
  • how Jimmy’s thinking is shaped by that engaement; he’s still directed that direction/vector. Characterize Jimmy’s view on:
  • the Egodeath theory
  • the maximal entheogen theory of religion
  • the Cybernetic Theory of Ego Transcendence

Max: underdevelopeed.

Cyberdisciple: Why is Jimmy interested in the Egodeath theory or in Max? The opportunity to engage in dialog.

37:00 Egodeath Bad News Theory

“not good news about psychedelics, the Egodeath theory makes points that go against what some people want to hear.” 

This is true in many aspects. 

Any significant new theory contradicts existing desires and expectations of existing “theories”, views, and attitudes.

[January 1, 2021]
I copied the below list of items to this WordPress page:

The Egodeath Theory as a Large Set of Bad News
https://egodeaththeory.wordpress.com/2020/12/30/the-egodeath-theory-as-a-large-set-of-bad-news/

Points in the Egodeath theory that are objectionable to extant views:

o  Ahistoricity of religious founder figures (this is not fundamental to the Egodeath theory; it’s peripheral, not in the Core theory).

o  No-free-will; pre-existence of a single rail of control thoughts throughout time for each person.

o  Non-drug meditation is illegit, it makes claims it cannot sustain, and it constantly contradicts itself about what claims it is making.  The wellspring of religion is *not* non-drug-meditation; the ongoing wellspring of religion has been psychedelics, not meditation.

o  God is not a matter of epistemology, but altered-state phenomenology.  God is the hidden source of control-thoughts, indirectly revealed and unveiled in the altered state.  Moses is placed in a rock by God, and from that vantage point, sees only the back side of God.

o  The New Testament asserts Gnosticism: hidden knowledge that is revealed only to “those on the inside”, the predestined elect.  It is fabrication, to say that the New Testament openly presents everything.  The New Testament veils no-free-will and the hidden source of control thoughts: hides and reveals, conditional upon being predestined to be given the real Eucharist’s Holy Spirit altered state.

o  The main, paradigmatic instance of paradigm conversion is not in hard science, but in Cognitive Science of Religion.  Paradigm conversion is inspired by Religion, rather than Science, where Science is taken to mean hard sciences.  Cognitive Science is not exactly one of the hard sciences.  It can cover loose cognitive phenomenology.  Loose Cognitive Science is the foundation and kind of science that the Egodeath theory is.  The Egodeath theory is multi-state Science per Charles Tart.  Is Egodeath theory advocating Religion, or Science?  Loose Cognitive Science and 2-state Cybernetics straddles Religion and Science, informs both, is informed by both.

Perennialism vs. Entheogens

Perennialism is inarticulate about the role of drugs such as magic mushrooms in religious history and Western Esotericism, or world religious mythology. 

Perennialism is weak on interpretation of myth; it is not articulate. 

See Cyberdisciple’s weblog posting that categorizes theories of mythology, which are sketchy at best, and hardly amount to an explanatory theory. 

They are quasi-explanations.

They fail to address the intense religious mystic state; e.g. “religion is metaphor for planets, in mundane daily life”. 

Conversion from the Old Random Heap to the New Proper Theory

My disparaging term is “sub-theory”, meaning something that is presented as a theory, yet fails to be a theory. 

“Theories” of religion and of mythology fail to be theories, except for the Egodeath theory. 

This makes it hard to apply Kuhn’s model, where an earlier *theory* is replaced by a later *theory*. 

To generalize: an earlier theory is replaced by a later theory which is more of a theory proper, than the original view, or set of assumptions.

There is the original view or assumption-set, versus the later actual theory. 

It’s not Theory 1 vs. Theory 2, it’s “Naive assumption-set” versus “Principled systemic theory”. 

In loosecog enlightenment, the mind has a Conceptual Revolution from the initial naive assumption-set to the subsequent principled and coherently justified assumption-set.

The theory of evolution is respectable as a bona fide theory. 

Whether justified by the evidence or not, the Theory of Evolution genuinely *is* a theory (or set of competing theories): it is scientific, a scientific type of explanation, in that it is a specified, defined, explanatory framework. 

I don’t respect the critique of “drugs” from recent converts to conservatism; I criticize conservativism’s knee-jerk drive-by dismissal of drugs, or Jan Irvin’s simplistic binary flip of attitudes, from pro-psychedelic to anti-psychedelic: that fails to be a theory.  It’s an attitude, not a theory. 

Pop Buddhism’s tepid psychedelics-belittling stance is not a theory, proper; it’s an attitude, a prejudice, arm-waving. 

Buddhism is self-contradictory in its claims of what non-drug meditation accomplishes as opposed to what psychedelics accomplish. 

The people who advocate non-drug meditation against psychedelics, have attitude, a few scattered arguments, but not a coherent position or theory.

Contradiction: He Focuses on Nondual Unity Oneness Awareness, Despite Experiencing (Bad-Trip) Cognitive Phenomenology Around the Pre-Existent Block Universe
40:00

Kafei is at level of giving shallow lip service to the Egodeath theory.

Kafei does no detailed engagement with the content of the Egodeath theory, the Core Concepts of the Egodeath theory.

Kafei does no engagement with Cognitive Phenomenology, even though his own experience was not only nondual unity oneness awareness, but was more like the characteristic bad-trip experiences of cog phenomenology.

Kafei is stuck at nondual unity oneness awareness , no detailed Phen’l content discussion. Contradicts Jimmy’s personal experience.

41:07

1st session bad trip, “felt everything was already completed, there was nothing new, everything had already happened”, sounds like “vantage point of 4-dimensional block-universe determinism”, but Jimmy hasn’t connected that , to highest mystical exp’c of ego death.” He charizes mysticsal experiece as nondual unity oneness awareness rather than control-loss & frozen time.” there’s a gap in his integration, of

  • high mystical exp’c
  • psychedelic exp’c, incl his own

Jimmy’s understanding of Transcendent Knowledge
40:20

Max “Kafei’s done no detailed engagement with the Egodeath theory … he’s stuck at the level of nondual unity oneness awareness

41:44

suicidally depressing feeling/experience that everything had already happened

41:51

Kafie hsn’t connected that with … unity consciousness not connected with frozen time.

42:10

statement contradicts Ep 16? I’m not finding a clear contradiction.

Max says theres a gap in integration between these 2 issues:

  • high mystical exp’g
  • psychedelic exp’g

around 40:00, Max seems to say Kafei doesn’t have timeless experience, maybe mis-heard him.

In Episode 16, Kafei says he had high-dose timeless experience and the Egodeath theory failed to validate high-dose and therefore the Egodeath theory has a gap: according to Jimmy’s logic,
The Egodeath Theory of Timeless Preexistence as the Actual Nature of Ego Transcendence
neglects to consider
the idea of Timeless Preexistence.

This lack that Jimmy has detected (ie that the Egodeath Theory of Timeless Preexistence as the Actual Nature of Ego Transcendence lacks & has neglected to consider the topic of Timeless Preexistence, and has a gap there) is proved by sophisticated search against the html files that gave 0 hits for “the Absolute” & (essentially, and most important than anything else in the universe or multiverse:) because Search gave 0 hits for High Dose.

Therefore (by that application of logic & reasoning), the Egodeath theory provably doesn’t consider the idea of experiencing timelessness.

Which makes about as much sense as saying that Minkowski’s block universe model neglects to consider the idea of the block universe.

How to reconcile 40:00 in this podcast, w/ episode 16? (not sure there’s contradiction)

43:19

try to meet each other between hwo Max & Kaf think. worldwhile worthwhile, showing Max’s fwk/approach, interact w/ Kaf’s.

43:48

no direction given, make up the rules.

record w/ Cyberdisciple more? conversion-thing w/ Jimmy?

max wants to podcast more, Jimmy is interested

Using the Ego Death Theory as a conversionary tool
44:37

there’s a possible way to progress — or failure.

To convince Jimmy that the Egodeath theory is a better way of understanding religion & tripping than the way Jimmy currently undertands it.

45:20

Kafei knows what a million mystic writers wrote, Kafei likes to explain what they wrote — but Max isn’t very interested in their thoughts, which Max already knows, or doesn’t find are very interested.

Seems like Kafei is unable / uninterested in saying what HE thinks, (in ep 16 59:00 he does).

“Kafei doesn’t know what he thinks about historicity; he waffles”

reminds me of my great 4 degrees of analogy:

  1. literal historical recounting, jesus was dead when decrossed – max literalism
  2. literal historical recounting, jesus was alive when decrossed
  3. hellenistic tale, jesus was dead when decrossed
  4. hellenistic tale, jesus was alive when decrossed – max metaphorical/analogy (my position)

Where is Kafei on that spectrum? Wished Max could have asked Kafei this Nov 2020 spectrum.

47:00 Religion is not sure what it really thinks about psychedelics

“I’m not sure that Kafei knows what he really thinks.”

mh commentary:

Religion is not sure what it really thinks about psychedelics. 

When religionists belittle psychedelics, when they relatively disparage psychedelics, they employ and present only a sub-theory, a non-theory.

The religionists’ dismissals and faint praise of psychedelics reflect an attitude, but they reveal the lack of systemic thinking. 

Religion that belittles psychedelics fails to be systemic thinking; it’s filled with contradictions and arm-waving, scattered fragments of critique and claims that don’t cohere.

48:30 How Does Kafei think of Exoteric vs. Esoteric?

re: the crucifixion story

49:36 Paradigms/Frameworks of Thought Shape the Questions We Ask

Cyb: “What comes out from the Egodeath theory is a clear sense of the way that various paradigms of thought or frameworks of thought end up shaping the questions we ask and the ways that we interpret responses.”

50:07

50:40 Frameworks & paradigms

Creedal declarations, metaphysics, epistemology… vs. the 3rd alternative, phenomenology.

Thinking through how frameworks & paradigms work.  Thomas Kuhn & Paul Thagard’s books about explanatory framework revision.

Theories of paradigm conversion and explanatory frameworks
51:00

the Egodeath theory is 3rd alt’v. how do ppl come to adopt new fwk?

Kuhn & Thagard books. Cyberdisciple exper’cd a leap in thinking/und’g / abil to char’ize diff posns & see their limits. basic definitional phrases – relig, no-free-will, bound up in larger fwks & assump sets , making that explicit.

Important to be conscious of explnatory frameworks, competing, at a larger level than the specific questions eg “Is perennialism the case, athiemism, supernation expl’s, rationalizing alt’v positions on jesus cruficixtion,

Bring to the fore the theories of paradigm conversion. Reading Kuhn/Thagard provided this.

52:30 Theory of free will is a theory that’s part of a bigger framework and assumption-set   

There are competing explanatory frameworks and paradigms at an overarching level: is Perennialism, Atheist, Supernaturalism, Rationalizing.

Sorting out these questions, big assumption frameworks containing views on smaller theories.  Take a multi-level approach, for semantics and assumptions.

53:50

cybs exp’c of change in the altered state (loose cognitive binding) as a switch of paradigms. transformation of the mental worldmodel from possibilism to eternalism

a multi-level approach:

  • his personal experiencing
  • sorting through the world of concepts

Kafei Should Read Kuhn & Thagard

Reading Kuhn & Thagard was a watershed moment for Cyberdisciple, when done along w/ reading MH on how theorizing works.

explanatory frwks/models helped Cyberdisciple alot. focus… helped him see topics/questions in a more from the outside, like metaperception. stepping back and viewing perception itself. link betweeen pscyhedelic loosecog & modesl of how deep structural change in paradigm conversion works.

More in-depth discussion on phen’y of the intense mystic altered state , to create a metaperception POV.

56:15 Explanatory frameworks and paradigm conversion, deep structural change, is like meta-perception.

Explanatory frameworks and paradigm conversion, deep structural change, is like meta-perception.

Atheist thinking style
57:00

Atheiests vs Kafei depbate, ep 13, call-in to shows, you have to make a Creedal declaration of binary Yes/No Does God Exist. “Are you a theist, or not?” Kafei: “Neither.” That structures how Jimmy thinks about these topics.

We are interested in experiential phenomenology, the ordinary state of consciousness vs the altered state (loose cognitive binding). things that are observed and experienced in the altered state. the intense mystic altered state.

theories of paradigm conversion

58:00 Declare Whether God Exists Yes or No

Are you a Theist or an Atheist?  Creedal declarationism.  Reject those two predefined, wrongly defined assumption-sets.

Egodeath Theory Is the Paradigmatic Example of Paradigm Conversion

Egodeath theory conversion is tantamount to mental model transformation about control and time, which is *the* paradigm of paradigm-conversion.  Cyber discusses theory transformation as if religious mental worldmodel transformation is one paradigm-conversion instance among many. 

The master instance of paradigm conversion, the paradigmatic example of paradigm conversion, is changing from Possibilism to Eternalism. 

Thagard’s book title is Conceptual Revolutions. 

Thagard is extra subject to my critique, since he is a Cognitive Scientist.

Book:
The Cognitive Science of Science: Explanation, Discovery, and Conceptual Change
Paul Thagard
Apr 6, 2012
http://amzn.com/0262525984

When talking about “conceptual change”, it must be emphasized that the principle instance of “conceptual change” is religious conversion in the intense mystic altered state, the loose cognitive binding state, which reveals the source of control-thoughts and brings the experience of Eternalism, timelessness, frozen time block universe pre-set worldlines, no-free-will, and non-control (that is, a different, “trans-personal” mode of control).

The primary instance of conceptual change, to be used by the Cognitive Science of conceptual change, is within Religion.

58:45 Phenomenology, Mechanics of Conversion

Phenemenology is a good path into thinking about theorizing. Make explicit the mechanics of conversion. the way that conversion works is an aid to having gthe conversion happen, & recg’g that in other writings, how does a world gain converts? Make explicit the hsape shape of pop sike or platonism.

1:00:33

illuminating a path forward

Exoteric and Esoteric interpretations of religion
1:00:48

maybe discuss exotericism/eso’m

1:01:30

kafei’s habits & moves

you ask him his view, and he just recounts citations (he also claimed the Egodeath theory needs more citations of some sort — but I am the writer to cite).

take a metaperception view on the conversation, go meta with Jimmy, discuss how the discussion dynamics seem in a rut, not moving fwd.

Jimmy suggested a trialog (episode 26), Kafei appeareance #4.

1:04:20

what are Kafei’s movtiations? is that why he is citation-driven?

contemp Atheism dialog mode, characterize it – does that explain Jimmy’s approach, he was formed by that Ath’m forum? Max doesn’t care about who Jimmy cites.

You don’/t need citations. What does Jimmy think? Force Jimmy to take a position, not just copout by citing everyone else under the sun.

Jimmy’s not clear with himself on what he himself thinks.

Jimmy Needs to Do Source-Criticism

“Source criticism (or information evaluation) is the process of evaluating an information source, i.e. a document, a person, a speech, a fingerprint, a photo, an observation, or anything used in order to obtain knowledge. In relation to a given purpose, a given information source may be more or less valid, reliable or relevant.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_criticism

1:07:39

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lossky

Vladimire Lossky – is Jimmy merely citing him, he should critique him. Don’t just cite sources; critique them. Identify the pros and cons of Losky.

Jimmy would benefit from doing Source Criticism.

End of Podcast

About Egodeath Yahoo Group Postings

Not sure if the below posts are relevant to this podcast episode.

The threading in Yahoo Mail seems weird; seems like random posts get grouped together.

To make things worse, the UI doesn’t show the email Subject line much, to see if these posts are really in the Podcast Commentary thread.

June 22, 2019 10:34 am the Egodeath Yahoo Group posting – Hanegraaff, Psychedelic Perennialism

When discussing McKenna, Perennialism, and Psychedelics, an omission is the episode is Wouter (“vow ter”) Hanegraaff, a scientific historian of Western Esotericism.

Hanegraaff wrote articles about:
o  The psychedelics origin of Newage
o  The suppression or cover-up of psychedelics by writers.
o  McKenna and the suppressed Psychedelics history behind Newage.

2020: well today is January 1, 2021, so:
2021 search link at my WordPress site:
https://egodeaththeory.wordpress.com/?s=Hanegraaff
updated keyboard-shortcut spew: [ p.m. January 1, 2021]

My postings: [Yahoo ended UI around Oct 2019]
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/egodeath/search/messages?query=hanegraaff

& McKenna:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/egodeath/search/messages?query=hanegraaff%20mckenna

If the Establishment has promoted psychedelics (whether out of insincere malice or beneficence toward the populace), it’s odd that the Establishment doesn’t hasten to describe psychedelics as the origin and ongoing wellspring of religion throughout history. 

Such incoherent and self-contradictory stances are commonplace.

Posting – Cyb’s Theories of Myth

“Theories” of mythology, categorized:

https://cyberdisciple.wordpress.com/evaluating-theories-of-mythology/

Post jun 22 1229pm – Psychology and the Perennial Philosophy: Studies in Comparative Religion

A book that appears to be relevant to Episode 14:

Psychology and the Perennial Philosophy: Studies in Comparative Religion
Samuel Sotillos (Editor)
2013
“Modern psychology is at an impasse as it searches anxiously for new therapies to address the increasing occurrence of mental illness in contemporary society.

In this anthology, leading authors from the perennialist school, including Huston Smith, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, and Frithjof Schuon, draw on the age-old insights of the world’s wisdom traditions to argue that:

Modern psychology—behaviorism, psychoanalysis, humanistic and transpersonal psychology, overlooks the spiritual factors contributing to mental health and illness.”

http://amzn.com/1936597209

Book online:
https://books.google.com/books?id=IAT3HMemZowC&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=wouter+hanegraaff+perennial&source=bl&ots=AEd6pWjyJI&sig=ACfU3U0MQcqlybYufTLDGdKsO_9vu5xmqg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjq4vKl5_3iAhXjN30KHQTdCJYQ6AEwCXoECGAQAQ#v=onepage&q=wouter%20hanegraaff%20perennial&f=false

New Anti-Entheogen Attitudes
June 22, 2019 2:07 p.m. posting

Article:
“Drug-Induced Mysticism Revisited: An Interview [in 2011] with Charles Upton”
Samuel Sotillos

In the book _Psychology and the Perennial Philosophy: Studies in Comparative Religion_, Samuel Sotillos (Editor) interviews Charles Upton, who spews forth wisdom against demonic exoteric esotericism misuse of cognitive loosening agents.

filename: “Drug-Induced_Mysticism_Revisited_Intervi.pdf”
https://www.academia.edu/2937369/Drug-Induced_Mysticism_Revisited_Interview_with_Charles_Upton?auto=download

Search:
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Charles+Upton%22+%22Drug-Induced+Mysticism+Revisited%22

___________________

re: Need study of negative experiences:

One article critical of entheogens is inspired by Upton’s interview, and might be inspired by Jan Irvin’s expose of malevolent intel promotion of dissociatives (psycholytics) in the article series _The Secret History of Magic Mushrooms_.

https://auticulture.com/manufacturing-consent-to-a-counterfeit-spirituality-the-new-controlled-counterculture/

_______________

“Bullsh*t, about it being “medicine” or heightening awareness; instead, it’s an aid to dissociation.  We instead have to take reality straight.” [false dichotomy-fest -mh]

“Maybe there are possible benefits of occasional, cautious mushroom taking.  Maybe they should be legalized.

None of the ‘shroom-defenders addressed the point that psychedelics have been heavily promoted, researched, distributed, and employed by nefarious government & intelligence organizations since the beginning.

Most people in the western world have only been introduced to them because of those agendas.

There are unknown deficits for use of these substances.”

“This mushroom-allegiance confirms that this is a bogus religion, complete with fanatical dogma.”

“Someone claims I support the Man because I am not celebrating legalization of aids to dissociation — yet it is clearly in the interests of state power to do so at this juncture.”

“I was hoping for some healthy skepticism based on what has been proven about the promotion of these substances by social engineers and mind controllers, and the unknown possible long-term side effects. Anyone who isn’t very skeptical & cautious isn’t playing with a full deck.”

___________

Crowning his false dichotomy fest, he takes it for granted that the Eucharist isn’t psychedelics, that it’s a matter of psychedelics vs. Eucharist.

This is a noteworthy article, representing a new kind of move past the status quo received view options on entheogens, post pro-entheogen attitudes.  Not the same as simple anti-psychedelics attitudes of the past. 

This article author is one of the entheogen-informed people who are starting to flip against psychedelics after later finding out about the nefarious motives of the advocates, much stronger than the initial incomplete exposes of intel pushing psychedelics. 

See his excerpts from the Upton article, at the end.

Jun 22 2:29pm 2019 – The Serpent’s Promise, or: Drugs as Ritual Self-Sacrifice

“The Serpent’s Promise, or: Drugs as Ritual Self-Sacrifice”
https://auticulture.com/blog/2016/10/27/the-serpents-promise
Author: Auticulture

Excerpts:

“consciousness-altering drugs, and most especially psychedelic substances, are a form of concentrated death. [and rebirth into new life -mh]

That’s not meant to give a wholly negative spin to such substances.

Death regenerates life and keeps things moving forward; without it, there is no evolution, no advance.

As “condensed death particles,” entheogens and other drugs attack the nervous system …

Shamanically speaking, to smoke DMT or ingest any other hallucinogen is to offer up our cells as a sacrifice to the spirits.

By such sacrifice, we are allowing our consciousness to be possessed by mysterious and invisible agents of transformation.

When we ingest a psychoactive substance, a number of our neurons [better: mental constructs -mh] are “destroyed,” which is to say, broken down to their basic constituents.

In the moment of destruction, they become “food” for inorganic intelligences to gain temporary substance in our organic realm of existence, via our consciousness.

There is a moment of overlap between the worlds of life and death, the temporal and the eternal.

As part of us “dies,” it is absorbed by the spirit-intelligences residing in the plant or chemical, intelligences which are seeking an experience of organic existence otherwise unavailable to them.

we get to consciously experience existence “on the other side,” through the eyes of the spirits or ancestors; at the same time, those spirits are able to experience life through our eyes.

This form of ritual sacrifice is an ancient exchange, possibly the oldest one of all.

It may even be what the parable of the fruit of good and evil is referring to: the knowledge of death.”

“The idea that psychedelics are a concentrated “death substance”—a form of holistic poison—does not contradict the idea that they can be used for healing, because this is true of all homeopathic remedies. Dosage is key: even a little bit too much and medicine becomes poison.

With psychoactive substances, this relates not so much to the amount ingested but to the frequency of use, and, equally or perhaps more important, to the circumstances under which they are being used.”

Jun 22 2019 305pm – Camps Belittling Each Other

It is amusing seeing this grappling in the dark, between camps: 
Perennialists belittling Ken Wilber, belittling psychedelics, disparaging Newage.  
I’d like to see more of Psychedelicists belittling Meditationists.  
Even Entheogenicists belittling Psychedelicists.  
Technical psychedelicists dismissing all Religionism.
There’s critique going all around, but it’s in the dark, so, lots of noise, lots of high-flying arguments that are hardly worth bothering with.  
People are *trying* to formulate substantive critiques, with limited success.
The new development in this internecine dispute is, increasing awareness of influencers pushing an agenda employing weaponized cognitive looseners to weaken others.

Jun 22 2019 4:30pm – Wilber vs. Entheogens

I’m not interested in what other people, or intellectual camps, assume or think about psychedelics, religion, mysticism, no-free-will, or mythology. 

They’ve spilled much ink, producing little comprehension of how the elements fit together.

Upton’s interviewer mentions:
“Ken Wilber – Ayahuasca Part 1.wmv”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HPQgKbxIjk

pranaf. in 2016 commented:

“Ken’s attachment and preference to Vedanta teachings blinds him from the healing and therapeutic value of the sacred plant medicines.

Elitists pompously think that because an experience is initiated from communion with other aspects of self from the material world, that they are somehow inferior, spiritual dead ends. 

That this is somehow considered cheating and a path that is not worthy of respecting. 

This is a tragic conclusion with regards to furthering the evolution of consciousness for humanity. 

It’s oppression, like elitist priesthoods playing gatekeepers and keeping the masses from the tools and techniques which can provide the means for engaging direct and felt experiences with the Divine. 

Shamanic and entheogenic ceremony is a powerful tool that provides direct access to “direct experience”  with the Divine for those who wish to engage with it. 

This work is just like any other spiritual path and also requires significant study, practice, and discipline and at the same time in my opinion it produces much more immediate results. 

Psychedelics are a tool and needs to be learned how to used with respect and care. 

How to process the experiences from this communion are all part of the individual’s process of their relationship with their Higher Self, with their own Divinity. 

The medicine doesn’t provide the discipline or work required for the phase shift itself; it’s the catalyst for revealing the dynamics of the entire system and how we are all parts of it and have forgotten our interconnection.

It is this “seeing” though that provides the fuel and re-patterning of our consciousness in very powerful ways toward facilitating healing our physical bodies, attuning all of our bodies on different levels and evolving our consciousness. 

Plant medicines heal through activating the individual’s reconnection with their higher self, with the divine and with finding meaning and purpose in life.

The entire nervous system, immune system and emotional and astral bodies are re-tuned and nourished from these experiences. 

The potential for facilitating shifts from one stage to the next and becoming integrated or “integral” according to integral philosophy is massive. 

Any tools which can help facilitate these shifts would be embraced and admired as helpful spiritual technologies.

It isn’t necessarily suitable for all humanity, though the majority of humanity would benefit and highly evolve from these experiences quite rapidly.”

sml. replied:
“Wilber said people who do both mind-altering substances and meditation will usually benefit more than people who do just one or the other. Any experience in any state will not “add” anything to your Essential Self.

val. replied:
“Wilber is supportive of the intelligent use of psychedelics, which is WAY more than most Buddhist or Eastern teachers will do.

There is still a crazy stigma attached to psychedelics among the older generation of Buddhist practitioners, which is a real shame, because psychedelics can help people who run into the frustrating blockages that can manifest in deep practice and are difficult to overcome with meditation alone.

The stagnation those blockages results in leads many people to burn out and quit the path, or become exhausted and disillusioned.”

Unknown's avatar

Author: egodeaththeory

http://egodeath.com

One thought on “Commentary on Episode 14 (2019-06-18) Max Freakout & Cyberdisciple re: Kafei”

Leave a comment